It is with great pleasure that I interview Frank Turner on a semi regular basis. As a huge fan of his former band Million Dead - to the point where the two albums they released in their short time together will easily be two of my favourite records of all time - I've watched Frank grow from acoustic solo balladry to full-on rock superstar from the very instant he posted his first two songs online. This year has seen some amazing moments for this man - playing to huge crowds at Reading and Leeds festival on the Radio 1 tent, selling out Shepherd's Bush Empire and a final triumphant, skin-of-his-teeth victory show at the Union Chapel - and it's a real treat to see someone so hard working finally get the love he deserves.
So here's the two interviews I got published this year involving that man. One is a straight ahead story of his success and the other involves a free form debate with fellow excellent songwriter Chris T-T (about to release his new record Love Is Not Rescue in a few months time). I may think about posting the entire transcript at some point but the articles are here for your enjoyment.
Monday 7th September: I begin writing this on the very day that Frank Turner’s third album, Poetry of the Deed, is released. Last night, he announced that his biggest headline show to date – Shepherd’s Bush Empire – had sold out. This follows last weekend when his sets at Reading and Leeds filled out the enormous Radio 1/NME tent. A couple of months before, he was supporting The Offspring in arenas across the US and Canada and celebrating signing to Epitaph worldwide. Before that he was doing 24 shows in 24 hours for a video shoot with yours truly. This is, without a doubt, the weirdest and most exciting success story I’ve ever had the pleasure of writing about. As this article goes through daily revisions, hopefully it’ll capture this extraordinary week.
“Life is slightly surreal at the moment but I retain enough of a sense of humour to find the whole thing hilarious,” says Frank, grinning. “That CNN thing was totally insane.”
Of course, CNN. How could I forget?
“That was really very bizarre. Ben (Dawson – friend/ex-bandmate) texted me at 7am and woke me up and said: ‘Could you give me the address of the crossroads at which you sold your soul.’” Frank, this Winchester-bred, hardcore punk enthusiast and former member of several underground UKHC bands, was featured on American news channel CNN with the presenter describing him as “the voice of a generation…except that our generation as so many worthless wankers in it that don’t deserve to be associated with him”. Jaws dropped all round.
So, what’s so strange about a folk and country-based solo artist signing to a punk label and doing extraordinarily well? Perhaps that it’s a testament to self belief, hard work and that it is possible to make a living from something you love doing. That in itself is unusual for most of us. On a recent hourly check, Frank’s album is number 12 in the itunes chart, number 23 in the Play.com chart and 40 in the Amazon.co.uk chart. It’s irrelevant now you’re reading this, but I’m trying to capture the palpable sense of excitement that myself, his fans, his long-term record label and PR team at Xtra Mile Recordings, his friends and family are all feeling at this very moment.
“There’s a real groundswell happening in the States I think and Europe as well. That’s fantastic, that’s what we always wanted. It means it’s working! People are falling for it!” chants Frank with a sincere smile on his face.
Without going too far into the depths of history, Frank went solo in September 2005, played shows everywhere he could for little or no money, from little bars to unplugged nights in pubs via house parties and a thousand shows at North London hangout Nambucca. After sending out bedroom CDRs to anyone who was interested, he released a 7” single, a couple of EPs and two full albums over the past three years, as well as a compilation of early material, split vinyl and various other physical loveliness. The biggest difference between recordings of yore and Poetry of the Deed is that full band performances have been captured this time round. This highlights both Frank’s songwriting and lyrical talents and those of his excellent band – three members of Oxford-based Dive Dive and keyboard player Matt Nasir. It’s almost Frank’s personal acknowledgment that, despite the massive individual efforts of himself, he owes a debt to others who have helped him along the way.
“I played all the parts except the drums myself before, and then taught them to the guys in my band who are all better at their relative instruments than I am. I preferred the live versions of my songs because Tarrant (Anderson) would add a bass lick that was great or Ben (Lloyd) would do something interesting on the guitar and particularly Matt (Nisar) our keyboard player, the newest member of the band is a phenomenal musician and it just seemed to be pointless to do it the same way. We might as well capture the best on the record. Part and parcel of that is that I wanted to make a record which sounded a bit bigger, more rock.”
Tuesday 8th September: Currently sitting at 8 in the itunes chart and 27 in the Amazon chart, Poetry of the Deed is certainly a wider record in scope and sound. You can expect shimmering guitars on top of Nigel Powell’s proficient and well-suited drum patterns, Tarrant’s restrained bass flourishes and Matt’s glorious piano arpeggios on Our Lady of the Campfire. Mandolins and fiddles fight atop each other on the defiant Sons of Liberty. Stabbing, jaunty major chords clash with the minor key feelings and sentiments wrought across Richard Divine.
That this record was recorded live for the most part gives you an indication of the hard work everyone, including producer and unrepentant “taskmaster” Alex Newport, threw wholeheartedly into Poetry of the Deed. “I don’t really subscribe to that whole Bob Dylan first take sort of approach to recording. We did a residency of shows in Oxford and played the album which was a useful exercise for us because there’s an extra tightness you get from playing live. Alex came in and the difference between our playing after just two rehearsals with him was just fucking crazy. He’s just really anal, but that’s the skill you need to do the job he has.”
Wednesday 9th September: While taking a break from typing, I watched a video of Frank playing live on CNN.com that was posted yesterday. It all seems to be getting just a little out of control. The album is now out in America. A message from his PR company yesterday told me that he made No 13 in the midweek UK charts with the album. In fact, Xtra Mile Recordings in the UK and his press team at Press Counsel have all been with Frank since his hardcore days, and right now they must be jumping for joy. In fact, I’ll email them and see. So with Epitaph taking over worldwide duties, how is this going to change things for the pretty independent Frank?
“It’s really good. My experience of working with labels thus far has been working with Xtra Mile who are AMAZING,” he says, at the label headquarters, a week before Reading/Leeds and on the day his single The Road moves from Radio 1 C-list to B-list. “Don’t crush me like a bug!” he shouts across the office. “But it’s familial, one country, one office and, working with Epitaph, it feels great to have an international team. It’s such an industry thing to say but everyone’s on the same page, man! I really feel like they get how I want to be presented to the world. They’ve created a massive buzz but I’ve always wanted to be somebody who’s not at one removed from the promotion of their album. ‘This is me and what I do, these are my songs, check it out and if you wanna come talk to me, come and say hi.’ They’ve been really good at keeping that spirit going.”
Over the years Frank has been playing house parties, meeting fans, and been great at his own self-promotion. Xtra Mile merchandise emblazoned with “I Am The Real Frank Turner” or “Frank Turner Is Coming. Look Busy” have kept everything light hearted, and faintly ludicrous. At his first gigs he’d be handing out bedroom demos, and sending them for the cost of postage from his family home. It’s a far cry from the 2CD and T-shirt Poetry of the Deed packages on the Epitaph website, or selling out Shepherd’s Bush Empire, which has unfortunately curtailed his ability to hang out at the merch stand and say hello. Does he ever feel that Epitaph has taken too much away from his very capable hands?
“Um, ah, actually, interestingly, not if I don’t want it to be (taken away),” he hesitantly replies. “One of the things that has been really great recently is I’ve been learning how to delegate. I used to co-tour manage myself in the UK, and I’m not involved in that anymore. It’s been really nice to be able to step back a little bit from the day to day machinations of what I do. I have to really, if I’m gonna be able to concentrate on the amount of shows and press I’ve got to do.”
Don’t for a minute think this has made him inaccessible or aloof from fans. Bear in mind that the video for The Road involved us visiting people’s houses, Frank playing songs to fans, meeting them, having a beer with them and generally being himself, as he’s always been.
Friday 11th September: So here we are, two days away from getting the official chart verdict, which I’m sure you all know by now, or at least can find out. Frank, during the interview and being his open and chatty self, explains how he already has around 25 songs and ideas for other low-key releases, how he doesn’t want to upset anyone with his songwriting (“Though, I like the idea of Labour MPs crying because of me. That’s a wonderful idea.”) and that he’ll never cross the strict line he has between private and personal with his lyrics. It’s all interesting but you can read that in one of the countless other interviews doing the rounds or even his messageboard at www.frank-turner.com.
Having announced a relatively intimate Christmas show at the glorious Union Chapel in North London yesterday, Frank and everyone around him have had an exceptional week. The guys at Press Counsel emailed me back too, calling the whole experience “rewarding” and that “it's good to know that the good old fashioned method of hard work can still pay off!”.
What’s best to take away from this is that Frank has never compromised his personal beliefs, or his songwriting but has never sold himself short for either as a self confessed “ambitious person”. He gives equal kudos to the people who’ve helped him as to himself and he’s now enjoying his success for all its worth. He’ll never quit either, in case you haven’t heard the lyrics to Live Fast Die Old: “let’s never retire, let’s keep on making mistakes till we’re done. I’m going to live fast and I’m going to die old, I’m going to end my days in a house with high windows on the quiet shores in the South-West.” Not only that but on Try This At Home, he’s urging YOU AT HOME to go out and do better than him. He’s proved his point, now it’s your turn. Listen to it and I dare you not to be inspired. Besides, why should he feel guilty about finally doing well out of something he loves. As he points out: “I keep myself steady by remembering the terrible, terrible bands that have sold more records than me. That makes me feel good.” Frank Turner is exactly what this country needs.
Brad Barrett
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Folk Academy
You know, we reserve the right to get lazy here at Playmusic Pickup. We break our backs introducing you to the finest (and admittedly, the not so fine) music we can find, signed, unsigned or somewhere inbetween, and occasionally, we want to sit back and let the artists do the talking.
Frank Turner and Chris T-T are both artists we’ve featured or mentioned extensively in the last few years at Playmusic HQ. We’ve busked with Frank, got Patrick Eggle to make him a guitar and we’ve chatted concept albums via email with Chris T-T.
For those of you not in the know, Frank and Chris are two of our finest songwriters. Chris has just finished his trilogy of London-based concept records with this year’s Capital, a fine rock record in its own right. Frank, meanwhile, has just finished a sell-out tour of the country in promotion of his heartfelt second album Love, Ire and Song. Purchase everything they’ve released forthwith, it’s all brilliant, and then sit down with us while two mighty intellects do (heavily edited) battle. Sat in the middle bar of the King’s Cross Scala, Frank starts with his first question for Chris.
Frank: I’ll start with one of my serious questions. How important is place, culture and nationality in songwriting to you?
Chris: It’s almost everything. I think that one of the things that I’m not able to do is write without that there. I just couldn’t write a song about a physical place I’ve never been unless it’s a totally crazy story. For me, it’s not so much that one writes ‘here’s a place and I’m gonna write about it’. It’s that every single song, whatever it’s about, has a place in the back of it for me. I’m really trying hard right now to make a bunch of songs that aren’t about anything and aren’t about a place but that doesn’t work.
Frank: So being English is important to you?
Chris: Oh, massively important. I would always call myself English. But that’s the opposite of being tied to a right wing thing because I definitely believe in open borders and the free movement of people. The Maggie Holland songs about England - A Place Called England, A Proper Gardener - are the ones where it’s Englishness to do with the land, which you do really well on stuff like Nashville Tennessee and To Take You Home, and it’s where we’re from and yet there’s this massive cultural weight on us as pop musicians to almost try to pretend to be something else. It’s really important that we don’t.
Frank: I’m satisfied with your answer.
Chris: You come from a much more punk/alternative background than me. Do you feel, given that your music is now very tuneful and in some places soft, do you miss the punk thing and do you still think that you’re either a punk or an anarchist?
Frank: Good question. Punk infuses everything I do because I learnt how to play music along with that style and it was my doorway into music, both listening and playing. So I’m never gonna stop thinking about it. When I think about heavier sounds I think of them in a punk way, and when I think about melody… It’s just the bedrock of it and that will never cease to be and I don’t want it to cease to be. I think that it’s a great scene and ethos and something that I’m proud to have put a lot of my life into. I guess there are days when I miss the pure rage and aggression but the problem is there’s nothing worse than fake rage and aggression which is kinda why bad hardcore bands are worse than bad bands of any other genre. So to be in a band like that and make it worthwhile and good you have to be pissed off in the right way – 300 days a year. I just can’t.
C: Something that happened on this tour that I hadn’t seen on previous tour, is that you at the end ditched the guitar and went back into the crowd and I think a lot of fans are really overwhelmed by that, being, in a way, being back to Million Dead days but also it’s much more uplifting than it would’ve been a few years ago. It’s like a totally joyous moment.
F: I think that’s true. In Million Dead* we were, to a certain extent, trying to fight the audience. Now I’m just trying to hug them! But punk is vastly important to me and also the other thing is people always ask what punk and folk have in common and I think one of the things they have in common is that they describe both an ethos and a sound and that the two aren’t necessarily linked all the time and I think I incorporate elements of all four into what I do.
Would I call myself a punk? It depends on who I’m talking to. If I’m talking to the kind of person who wants me to be a singer/songwriter: yes. If I’m talking to the kind of person who’s a punk scenester warrior writing a ‘zine then: no fucking way. I think the point of punk was that it had a degree of contrarianism in it anyway. So I’d call myself a corporate singer songwriter punk rocker. I’m not sure I would describe myself as an anarchist anymore. What I would say is that my essential first principles that got me thinking about the realm of politics, which was an essential distrust of power and human beings organised into hierarchies aimed at hurting other human beings, those things are STILL my first principles. The difference is that I’ve decided I’m more interested in practicality and pragmatism than in high falutin’ – with no G – idealism. So yeah it’ll be wonderful if we could overthrow the state and have non-hierarchical systems and organisations. It’s not gonna happen. I’ll state this as a simple fact: any attempt to try and make it happen will end in pain and death for lots of normal, innocent, ordinary people. What I think we should do instead is concentrate on ways of minimizing the impact on ordinary people’s lives and allow them to get on with their lives and not be bothered by the state. Then you’ve suddenly got a range of things to talk about that ARE achievable. Like everything from not having ID cards and trying to dismantle the surveillance system we’ve put together in this country; trying to remove government from people’s lives, letting people be freer. To me, liberty is the highest intellectual achievement of the human race.
Chris: It’s a great answer.
Frank: The music that we make, both of us, let’s be blunt about this, is both quite middle class and quite white and probably predominantly male. I remember when I was younger at a particular phase of my development wishing, hoping I was gay because that would mean I would be part of a minority. (Uncontrollable laughter from Chris, their PR Dani and me) Personally, at this point of my life, I’ve reached a state of karmic calmness about the fact that I make white boy guitar rock and I don’t give a shit. Are you bothered about it?
Chris: No I’ve never, ever been bothered about it at all. Sometimes when I’m having a row with my wife, one of the things she calls me is middle class. It just really makes me laugh. My parentage on my mum’s side is really working class but my parentage on my dad’s side is really middle class. It makes a mockery of the whole thing really. No it doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t think about it so much as you’ve put it into words.
Frank: Not just the politics but in terms of influences. All my influences are all white boys with guitars. I like listening to Public Enemy, but it has nothing to do with the music I make.
Chris: My influences are far more pop. Not even influences, music I love. I go a lot more into the cheesy mainstream than you do and you’ve still maintained a lot of the hardcore stuff, which I love, but definitely aren’t my roots.
Frank: You know Matt our new keyboard player had never heard of Fugazi? I nearly cried.
Emily Barker (tour support) had never heard of Dinosaur Jr.
(General disbelief follows)
Frank: Yeah I know. I’m starting to hang around with proper…
Chris: …Folk people.
Frank: They don’t shower and they drink too much.
Chris: Don’t let them near the cider. It causes problems.
C: I was gonna ask you about songwriting. You said something interesting the other day about lyrics. You definitely, to a greater extent than me, separate lyrics and music in the compositional process. So, is it that you write all the lyrics first then go and turn them into songs.
F: No, music always comes first. I have phrases that come up and I jot down and I have things I want to write about. One of the funny things is that, quite often when I’m coming up with a melody, I end up singing something random but that I quite like. I’ve got a new one which is ‘he cast no shadow in the morning sun’ and that’s just how my brain spewed out that melody.
C: There’s a new song you introduced last night quite late in the tour that you’ve been soundchecking. You had the music right at the beginning, which sounded amazing, but you didn’t have any words. Is that right?
F: Well, you see, the thing is I had a couple of the lines here and there. It’s called Live Fast, Die Old although my band have started calling it Die Hard With A Vengeance now. It’s definitely a case of lyrics, I spend forever on and I kick cases, and tenses and pronouns around ad infinitum.
C: You write almost always about you and very truthfully I think. Do you ever try writing stories about other things that don’t include you and if so do you find that it compromises your truthfulness?
F: I’ll start this by saying you do a lot more of the storytelling which I love and I love it when Springsteen does it and I love that approach to songwriting because I think it’s perfectly possible to tell an emotional and artistic truth through the medium of fiction,
I’m just no good at it. I’ve tried and it always turns out a bit shit and you know I’m still fucking trying and I’m just not very good. I always feel a bit of a fool singing about stuff that hasn’t really happened. I’m gonna write a concept album sooner or later. I’m gonna write a concept album about me and you.
With that promise/threat, we leave Frank and Chris to soundcheck, and prepare themselves for Frank’s sold out headline triumph at Kings Cross Scala, where two folk heroes – who I’ve seen play acoustic nights in pubs – play to a crowd of about a 1000, all singing the words back to them. It’s a sight to behold.
Transcribed, edited and narrated by Brad Barrett
* Million Dead was an incredible post-hardcore band existing from 2002 – 2005 which Frank was the singer and lyricist for. Check out their two albums A Song To Ruin and Harmony No Harmony for some (semi) serious righteous punk fury.
Quotes that we couldn’t fit in, but just had to be printed:
“People say you haven’t got any regrets because you don’t self-examine enough, but I’m not gonna waste time wishing I’d done things differently, I’m just gonna change the way I do things now. I think that’s the only sensible way of living life really.” Frank on eating meat after years of being vegetarian
“I want Castlereigh back. He was great. Worked really, really hard, then cut his own head off in 10 Downing Street. If only Gordon Brown would do the same thing.” Frank on awesome politicians.
“I want politicians who have taken drugs making drugs policy coz otherwise its fucking charlatanism. It'd be like me trying to make up laws for families tax breaks for people have children when I don’t have kids. I want politicians who are skagheads! Sorry, ex-skagheads.”
“If you start looking at where we’re at now, we’ve got massive poverty around the world - which we don’t mind because it’s foreigners. In fact, the infrastructure in the United States is dangerously close to collapse, and they’ve all got guns. I don’t even think it matters who becomes President. I wrote a little thing yesterday. I think whoever is president in six days time might be the last president of the United States as we see it. I really think we’re really close, 4 or 8 years from now, the United States could easily be in a state of collapse, with individual states succeeding and people shooting each other left right and centre.” Chris on the consequences of multi-national corporations, tongue in cheek, but deadly serious on the future of the US.
“What is the single fastest growing youth movement in the country? It’s Conservative Future, the group for young Conservatives, and one of the reasons (for that) is that they’ve been able to detatch themselves from social oppression, from moral bigotry of the old school Tory. So they are very socially liberal, they’re into their drugs, drink and shagging each other, and they don’t mind so much if you’re gay as long as you’re quiet about it and they like a few black people here and there…” Chris on growing youth movements.
“Gordon Brown is an absolutely terrifying human being because he doesn’t seem to be able to get it into his head that some things aren’t his fucking business. One thing I’m very big on is the concept of liberty and freedom and in a peculiarly English way, I like the way the English conception of freedom is almost based around people minding their own business.” Frank on freedom.
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